August 22, 2008

Weekend Reading And What Not

by IsaChandra

Some stuff to keep you occupied and out of the nice weather this weekend.

For vegans who hate kids. Joshy lays the smackdown on ya.

Veganfriendly’s tour of Portland. A little old, but so am I.

Coming around to food porn (no pun intended) on Vegans of Color.

And new vegan shoes for men! The website is annoyingly Flash, but the shoes look pretty cool and different than what’s currently out there. Plus, the company is called The Vegan Collection. Which is soooo official sounding.

And here’s my newest kitty, Kirby. I saved him from certain death only so he might pee on my forking bed.

Edited to add: If you want to continue this “conversation” please do so at Josh’s new entry.



  • August 22, 2008 at 6:32 pm: ICEQUEEN26

    Your kitty is so cute

  • August 22, 2008 at 6:58 pm: Vegetation

    Awwww Kirby is just adorable! (And don’t you love the way kitty’s repay our kindness with their pee and poop?!?!)

  • August 22, 2008 at 7:08 pm: SusanV

    Thanks for the great links, and if you ever need anyone to take that incontinent kitty off your hands, I’m available. I’ll sleep on plastic sheets if I have to!

  • August 22, 2008 at 7:49 pm: staci

    I don’t know who Josh is, but he can take his feeble “smackdown” and shove it. I probably hate his kid too.

  • August 22, 2008 at 7:58 pm: Carolyn Blakeney

    Yeah, I got one of them “Attitude” kit-tehs too. Crazy out of her mind. She mauled my forking face. But she came to me from under a friend’s shed along with her sister who is the sweetest, most angelic little butterball to ever walk the planet (bowing now, not worthy to be her guardian.) So if you rolls the dice, you takes the chance, heh?

  • August 22, 2008 at 9:12 pm: Ashley

    I’m curious how one has a cat as a vegan because I have desperately been wanting to get one. My husband read that cats are omnivores, so it would be cruel to not provide them with meat. I’m wondering what you feed your cat and if it seems “healthy?”

  • August 22, 2008 at 10:57 pm: IsaChandra

    Kirby is actually really well behaved aside from his little indiscretions with my comforter.

    @Ashley, My cats aren’t vegan but some people have success with giving their cats a vegan or partially vegan diet. Mine won’t touch the vegan food. It’s a messed up world and our choices can never be perfect. Check out the vegancats site and see what you think: http://www.vegancats.com/

    @staci, haha, you sound like a real psychopath! Good luck with that!

  • August 22, 2008 at 11:19 pm: joshivore

    staci, please don’t tell anybody you’re vegan, if you are.

    also, your mom is a bitch.

  • August 23, 2008 at 7:56 am: staci

    joshivore: I’m not following this: “also, your mom is a bitch.” My hating kids has absolutely zero to do with my mom, bro.

    And lawd’s forbid I give veganism a bad name by disliking unruly brats, right? Cause that’s way worse than the image we get from PETA on a weekly basis?

    Self-righteous prick.

  • August 23, 2008 at 8:35 am: Nikki

    I hope the teasing is done in good humor otherwise I will need to take the pee-kitteh Kirby and run away to have a dandelion break.

  • August 23, 2008 at 11:50 am: monia

    This is NOT my job to make this guy’s kid stay vegan. That’s what parental example is for.

    If someone with a small child sits next to me at a gathering, I will get up and move, if I’m able to.
    There are many other women willing to go “ooooh” and “aaaaah” over something that is, to me, a bio-hazard.

    Vegans, like all people, are different in their likes and dislikes. Not liking, hell, even hating, small children in my immediate vicinity, does NOT make me a bad person, nor a bad vegan.

  • August 23, 2008 at 11:57 am: joshivore

    staci and monia:

    staci, i called your mom a bitch to see how you felt about unwarrented attacks on your loved ones. not knowing your mom, i was clearly not being honest. since you don’t know my kid, it seemed like my statement about your mom was as dumb as your statement about my kid.

    monia: hating kids DOESN’T make you a bad person? or a bad vegan? what is veganism about for you? to most it seems to be about caring for others, compassion, understanding, all that. for you it is about something else?

  • August 23, 2008 at 12:01 pm: joshivore

    i will also add, and then i’m done, that you two are perfect examples of what i am talking about: people in this community who are unwilling to sacrifice a little of their own personal comfort for the well being of others and the well being of the community. you two make me really sad.

  • August 23, 2008 at 12:27 pm: the vegan vulcan

    What the heck is going on? Why the hate? In my opinion, misanthropic child-hating is just another manifestation of speciesism, an attitude of prejudice that keeps us from truly embracing the compassion that should be a part of veganism.

    I am uncomfortable around children, since I have never been around them much in my life. But I feel the same way about dog. Would I be cruel to someone’s dog if someone with a dog showed up at a vegan event? No, that would be ridiculous, so I try to curb my personal discomfort and expand my heart and my mind when the opportunities for growth present themselves.

    Comments like Staci’s and Monica’s really make me sad because I agree that vitriolic statements (calling a child a bio-hazard? Really? Like, moreso than cows, dogs, or cats?) make vegans look hateful and judgmental, and we hardly need that since our PR is hardly stellar as it is.

  • August 23, 2008 at 12:32 pm: monia

    To joshivore:
    To me the piece reads like someone is pitching a fit over the world not bowing to a personal choice. Your child = your job to explain that people are different, and not everybody likes the same things.

    To me, being a vegan entails compassion and non-abuse towards animals. Not people, big or small, but animals. “Don’t have choices, don’t have conscience”, proliferated for use and gain animals. En masse.

    People require, and receive, a completely different approach from me, on the basis of their personal merit. I’m sorry you are sad your child didn’t make the cut. Perhaps in a couple of decades things would be different.

    Personally, I don’t believe someone not smiling and waiving at her is going to turn her away from being vegan. If it will, it’s probably because you got so worked up about it, it now seems like a big deal.

    Perhaps she will stay vegan because you raised her this way. Maybe she’ll turn to flesh-eating just to spite you. She can grow up to do great things, or she can remain living at home, popping out babies fathered by who-knows-who.
    And you know what is the best part? None of it has anything to do with me.

    You had a kid knowing that this world is not all sunshine and daisies, now deal with it, and leave me my personal space. How dare you suggest that I make personal sacrifices, however small, to the proof your genitals work?

    I sincerely wish that having some child-avoiding vegan move away from her flying sippy-cup of doom is the worst thing that ever happens to your daughter, and she is otherwise a happy, healthy individual.

  • August 23, 2008 at 12:58 pm: staci

    Here’s the thing Josh: I don’t hate your kid. In fact, I might actually like her if I were to meet her. You seem like a reasonable and responsible parent and I appreciate that there’s another child in this world being raised vegan. What I don’t appreciate is someone insinuating that I am somehow detrimental to the animal rights movement because I won’t try to like kids. My general dislike of children has absolutely ZERO to do with animal rights. Animal rights to me=compassion towards animals, not children. Fine if you disagree, but you must realize you sound like a pompous ass insisting that you are better than everyone because you are oh-so-compassionate now that you’re a daddy.

    I don’t enjoy being around children, much like I don’t enjoy being around Republicans or John Mayer fans; it’s a matter of personal preference. I fail to see how my “sacrificing personal comfort” and playing with kids would be beneficial to the animal rights movement in any way.

    I also do not appreciate being called a bigot simply because I would rather not be around children. To be honest, your attitude sounds just as intolerant as you insist that mine is.

    And P.S.–PEOPLE, vegan and non-vegan, can be hateful and judgemental. No one is perfect and it is ridiculous to insist that we put forth a fake image of ourselves to uphold the Almighty Vegan Image. RIDICULOUS!

    Again, my aversion to children has nothing to do with the animal rights movement. However, my veganism and childfreedom are related in that both are conscious choices made to reduce my own personal burden on the Earth. You make you choices, I make mine.

    There are plenty of vegans who love kids. So why can’t there be room for those of us who don’t? Obviously, you are of the mentality that will not understand this and will definitely not admit to being wrong or just as intolerant as you are accusing others of being. Honestly, from where I sit, it is you who gives vegans a bad name; just another self-righteous vegan demanding that everyone live the same life as he does.

  • August 23, 2008 at 12:59 pm: vwam

    This sucks so bad, every time it comes up. It sucks. I have two kids, horrible, horrible bio-hazard children. It seems to me that the next step in the child hating rhetoric should be mass vegan suicide. For the animals.
    My kids are vegan and they are smart critical thinking people, but it does suck when they can’t be included in a community of people who share many of their views and morals. And it sucks when people don’t want to hang out with me when they find out I have kids. It’s not contagious. It is a personal choice, and just because children exist doesn’t mean anyone else has to give birth.

  • August 23, 2008 at 1:03 pm: vwam

    And also, Ruby is one of the most awesome people I’ve ever met.

  • August 23, 2008 at 1:12 pm: joshivore

    how is “i hate kids” different than saying “i hate black people” or “i hate disabled people.”?

  • August 23, 2008 at 1:17 pm: IsaChandra

    Also, children are animals so the argument that they should be excluded from “animal rights” is ridiculous. I’ve chosen not to have children and it really makes me sad when people are explicitly anti-child.

    And this?

    “And P.S.?PEOPLE, vegan and non-vegan, can be hateful and judgemental. No one is perfect and it is ridiculous to insist that we put forth a fake image of ourselves to uphold the Almighty Vegan Image. RIDICULOUS!”

    You of course CAN be hateful and judgmental, no one is asking you to be fake, just to be decent. It has nothing to do with an almighty vegan image, just a decent human being. Judgment and hate are both choices people make.

  • August 23, 2008 at 1:20 pm: IsaChandra

    ALSO, these haters are here anonymously so please take their trollish comments with a grain of salt. They are obviously little cowards. What other kind of person would a) hide and b) bash kids?

  • August 23, 2008 at 1:25 pm: vwam

    Kids are easy to bash, because, you know, they’re small.

  • August 23, 2008 at 1:57 pm: hikikomorihime

    When most of us say, “I hate kids”, rarely do we actually mean “HATE”. We mean “dislike”, or they “annoy” us. Rarely is it applied to ALL kids. Most of us actually like kids with whom we can hold a conversation, and kids who aren’t lil flaming brats (like most of the kids in my family). Of course, when *I* say “I hate my family”, I really do mean “hate”, so trying to insult them towards me to make a point will be much fail.

    Of course, even with *my* being annoyed by/disliking kids, I still think they have rights. I still think they shouldn’t be harmed. I still think they are people. Everyone I’ve ever met who says, “I hate kids,” becomes enraged when they hear of cases of child abuse or neglect. (I’m also annoyed by/hate loud rude adults, so I avoid them as well. Hmm, I also dislike/hate fundies, but I’m certain most of you consider that one OK, so I probably won’t have to explain why on that one.)

    Ah, but maybe this is OK since I’m not a “movement” vegan, but just someone who is trying to live a healthier life personally.

  • August 23, 2008 at 2:26 pm: monia

    To vwam:
    I didn’t say your children were horrible, but you must agree that a diaper full of excrement is a bio hazard. You love your children and you think they are wonderful – again, what does it have to do with me, my vegan ways or anything except you being a loving parent? Good for you, more power to the likes of you and all the best.

    Josh:
    You compare not liking children to not liking people on the basis of race. That argument right there devalues this whole discussion. Children grow up – people are stuck with the race they got dealt. Adult people, regardless of their coloring, are responsible for their actions, children are not.

    Your logic is faulty, and I shouldn’t even go there, because neither of these arguments have anything to do with being vegan, in my opinion. I’ve seen some pretty die-hard vegan white supremacists. Hardcore straightedge punks, all about the white power.

    I don’t want to be around flying sippy cups and scream-y moments. I have the right to get up and move away, I’m not hurting anybody. How does that make me a “bad” vegan?

    Again, there are plenty of people who will find your child adorable, it just won’t be me. On the other hand, I’ve seen a guy get in a mothers’ face for daring to have a kid when the world is crushing under overpopulated humans. That will never be me, either.
    To all:
    Leave me and my personal space in peace, quit calling me a baby basher, and go parent your children. I’ve been vegan for many years, but I disliked children for longer, and not from lack of exposure, either. One has nothing to do with the other.

  • August 23, 2008 at 3:07 pm: ali

    OK, I have to comment because this is making me cry. I have chosen not to have children, but I respect other people’s choices. Reading the child-bashing makes me question calling myself “vegan”. While I have now met enough vegans in real life who are great people(Josh and his wife Michelle among them), this wasn’t the case a year ago, and if I had read this then I probably would have been turned off veganism forever. Last time I checked humans were animals, too, I thought veganism was about honoring and fighting for all life, not just the lives you personally care about.

  • August 23, 2008 at 3:35 pm: vwam

    monia: No, I don’t consider a dirty diaper to be a bio hazard any more than I think a toilet is a bio hazard. Everybody poops.
    And my kids are way past diaper age, anyway.

    I am baffled by the attitude of not liking kids who aren’t perfect, they are annoying or brats. Kids have bad days, just like everyone else. Sometimes they are tired or hungry or just grumpy. Just like most people! And it also baffles me at how there always has to be someone to “blame” for the children’s terrible behavior. Sometimes it’s no ones fault. Sometimes adults are grumpy or bratty, and no one is going to make the blanket statement that all adults suck because of it.
    It’s the whole “children should be seen and not heard” thing that I find bothersome. Maybe people shouldn’t be allowed in public until they are 18? 21?

  • August 23, 2008 at 4:10 pm: staci

    Here you go, Isa, so I’m not an anonymous troll anymore. I’ll provide you with a MySpace link, since that’s all I have to offer. (Although there are others here who are “anonymous” with no links to follow who are in agreement with you that you choose to not call out on this matter. Convenient.)

    Isa, I also have chosen not to have children and I choose not to surround myself with people who have children. I cannot understand why this is such a problem for people. As I said before, there are plenty of vegans who love kids, so clearly, it’s not like vegan parents are being shut out in the cold. I dislike being around kids, plain and simple, so for me to pretend to enjoy hanging out with Josh’s kid, for instance, would be putting forth a fake image and that’s what he’s asking people to do.

    I don’t see how we are “bashing” kids. There are those of us who don’t want ‘em and those of us who don’t like ‘em, as well as those of us who fall into both those categories.

    I will again point out that all of you super self-righteous child-friendly people are being just as judgmental towards those of us who don’t like kids. And equating not liking kids with racism? Are you kidding me? Monia put it very well so please refer back to her comment in answer to your question. So quit reachin’, Josh.

    Y’all can boo hoo and be as sad as you wanna be that not everybody looooves your pweshus babeees, but you’re not going to change anyone. It’s a part of my genetic makeup. Trust me, I’ve tried to like kids and it doesn’t come, so I’m not going to force it. I just opt out of situations where I know I’ll be surrounded by kids but on the occasions where I am around them, I am not cruel or even impolite, though I will get up and move in a heartbeat if the child is being loud/misbehaving, but I would do the same if I were seated next to an obnoxious adult.

    All of this is really pretty ridiculous because what it boils down to is that none of this is an argument about VEGANISM at all. It’s the same argument that we childfree folk have to have all the damn time with breeders who get extremely defensive and take it personally that not everyone sees parenthood as the most important job ever.

    Everybody’s different, everybody makes different life choices. Just because all of us here are vegan doesn’t mean we have to share the same views on life. As another vegan said in a childfree forum, Deal with it and get off your damn vegan high horse.

    You may now continue getting all huffy and defensive and spend the afternoon getting your knickers all twisted. This is generally why I stay away from any PPK forums, as it turns into DRAMA but I’m tired of letting the childfree get bashed, so I chose to speak up.

  • August 23, 2008 at 4:45 pm: vwam

    I didn’t realize I was being anonymous, but I suppose I was. I am the moderator of the playground on the PPK.
    As far as message boards go, the PPK is the least drama filled one I’ve seen.

  • August 23, 2008 at 5:22 pm: Kimberlee

    These two anti-human pro animal people aren’t really using an ounce of logic! I don’t care if somebody doesn’t like kids but if they don’t want to look like complete real life trolls maybe they should show a shred of decency in public… to anybody. I’ve seen people get up and move away from black people and Hindus before, it looks no different to me.

  • August 23, 2008 at 5:28 pm: IsaChandra

    staci -”Isa, I also have chosen not to have children and I choose not to surround myself with people who have children. I cannot understand why this is such a problem for people.”

    It isn’t! The problem is that you are a jerk about it. Stop putting arguments into our mouths. And thank god you don’t post on the forums, I’d ban your age-ist ass in about 2 seconds you hateful jerk.

  • August 23, 2008 at 5:51 pm: joshivore

    i didn’t ask anybody to play with my kid or hang out with my kid. nobody actually asked for that so stop banging that drum. i didn’t ask you to try and like my kid either. i asked for people in this community to remember the other members of this community and how their interactions effect the movement. i asked for common decency, actually. which two people here seem proud to not give. your business but i am part of this community, do a lot of work in this community, and do not appreciate exclusive, anti-social behavior because it is bad for this community. i hope you two do not take part if you choose to remain bigoted towards any group in this community.

    this is not a vegan issue, that is correct. it IS an animal rights issue as that is the community i am talking about. it doens’t make you less vegan to “hate kids” i don’t guess. but it makes you a bad member of this community, if you are indeed a member of this AR community.

    regarding hating races and children: individual children grow up but the group i am referring to will always exist, will always be severely oppressed and exploited because of it’s helplessness. it will just be different individuals. and my comparison is still valid and i’m dying to hear a good rebuttal because i can’t think of one.

    how is it different to hate kids or hate the disabled, black people, or the elderly?

  • August 23, 2008 at 6:40 pm: Chad

    This is all a bunch of welfarist HOGWASH!

  • August 23, 2008 at 6:44 pm: IsaChandra

    Ageism And Veganism – What You Need To Know To Be A Complete Douche, a pamphlet by the internet.

  • August 23, 2008 at 7:08 pm: Chad

    You are fucking banned.

  • August 23, 2008 at 8:00 pm: Royce Drake

    Can anyone say intersectionality?

    Seriously– why can’t people own up to their bigotry? At least a racist bigot knows ze’s a bigot.

  • August 23, 2008 at 8:14 pm: H-Dog

    If anything, the comments here demonstrate the timeliness and relevance of Josh’s post. As I understand him, he’s not talking about a lack of friendliness toward children so much as he is a manifest unfriendliness toward children, in fact the very kind of irrational vitriol and hatred so aptly illustrated here.

    Josh is spot on when he criticizes people who are “unwilling to sacrifice a little of their own personal comfort for the well being of others.” Living in a diverse society, and being part of a diverse community, sometimes means putting up with a lot of things that may make us feel personally uncomfortable. But sucking it up and shelving our personal discomforts is a small sacrifice to make to be part of a culture that is beautiful in its diversity, even if that diversity sometimes involves the occasional risk of drool and sticky fingers.

    To do otherwise is to create a culturally impoverished society. And having such an attitude, I suspect, also makes for a lot of miserable, petty, and self-involved human beings.

  • August 23, 2008 at 9:28 pm: joshivore

    staci: i’m inviting you to respond on my blog directly to the question of how saying you hate children is different than saying you hate people of color or the differently abled or the elderly and how that is not bigotry.

    i’m going to ask you or any of the other people who say they “hate children” to not call me an asshole, a snot, a dick, and all the other names you all did on the livejournal thread. and i’m going to ask you all to not say my post was about wanting people to raise my kid for me because i did not ask for help in that regard and do not need it. things are going quite well over here on that front.

    please feel free to respond on my blog (http://joshivore.blogspot.com/).

  • August 23, 2008 at 11:38 pm: Katie

    Josh, you are snothole assdick. And a welfarist and a breeder.

    (But I like you anyway.)

    (I guess.)

  • August 24, 2008 at 12:19 am: MEGA-WATZ

    staci and monia did not spring up from pea pods in the earth, they were both sippy cup spilling, tantrum throwing kids at some point too…WTF.

    i bet if kirby peed on their bed it would be rainbows and leprechauns, but if a child did it…..

    double standards. end of story.

  • August 24, 2008 at 12:27 am: IsaChandra

    Kirby will pee on their beds, I will see to it.

  • August 24, 2008 at 1:45 am: IsaChandra

    If anyone wants to continue the “conversation” please do so in Josh’s new post:
    http://joshivore.blogspot.com/2008/08/how-is-i-hate-kids-different-than-i.html

  • August 24, 2008 at 5:39 pm: Sara

    “I?d ban your age-ist ass in about 2 seconds you hateful jerk.”

    Judgemental much? People can like and dislike whatever they please, and I’m sure I’m not alone in my newfound dislike for the PPK. Bye!

  • August 24, 2008 at 6:13 pm: joshivore

    sara: the hateful jerk in question didn’t bother then?

  • August 24, 2008 at 6:38 pm: IsaChandra

    Yes, I am judgmental against ageists*. If you dislike me for that than I am doing something right. Is this really the battle you want to fight, the battle for your right to hate people?

    *Sexists and homophobes, too! And people who kick puppies!

  • August 24, 2008 at 9:21 pm: FootFace

    “I also have chosen not to have children and I choose not to surround myself with people who have children. I cannot understand why this is such a problem for people.”

    It’s not a problem for me. And I am glad that I won’t be hanging around with you. Almost none of my friends have kids. Some of my friends are clearly uncomfortable around kids. (Even my child! I KNOW!) Some of my friends would rather do things with only me and not with my kid and me together. But none of my friends are jerks.

  • August 25, 2008 at 1:10 am: simonemelbourne

    aw, I just jumped to the comments to say how cute kitty is! can’t be bothered to read the haters. take it outside! and and i finally got my copy of veganomicon today hoorah!

    as for my kitty’s diet – she’s still a carnivore. i blame what I like to call “feline hypnosis” those purring burring sedative sounds they make to control your mind! (like – “na don’t give me the old tin of cat swill – opens me a new one!” or when i presented kitty with veganpet dry cat food all i got was a look that said “what is that? kitty litter?” and right now she is trying to walk over my keyboard! it’s an ongoing dilemma…

    love yr work isa. love to kirbylicious xo

  • August 25, 2008 at 2:10 am: IsaChandra

    Thanks, Simone. That is a nice thing to hear after this (literal) headache. I’m going to post more Kirby pics, soon. He’s actually been a total sweetheart over the past few days and no “accidents.” Fizzle is more of a typer, I think Kirby is too young for the keyboard right now.

  • August 25, 2008 at 9:44 pm: Katie

    I saw a kitty at the adoption center a few weeks ago that was named Chandra. She was black and orange, and her eyes matched the orange in her fur.

  • August 26, 2008 at 2:13 pm: b.a.d.

    Hate is not cool in any fashion. Nothing justifies hate. Hate breeds hate.

    Kirby is cute, this is the important fact of the matter.

  • August 26, 2008 at 3:53 pm: Nisi

    I was looking at the vegan cats website – very interesting. I would like to look into this more as I thought cats were obligatory carnivores. I imagine the food has all the requisite supplements and all – taurine, I think, is the really important one…

    As for cat pee on the bed… what have you been using to clean it? Vinegar helps with the big messes and is inexpensive. I used some stuff with an enzyme in it and it works really well too. The other thing to try is one of those sprays that makes cats not want to be near the smell. I had one that smelled like oranges but kept the cats away. Oh yeah, and citrus peel, they hate that. Give it a try sometime – after you eat an orange or something, put some peel near them – they’ll get up and move. Usually. I have one extremely lazy and willful cat that doesn’t move when it’s nearby even though it’s obviously making him uncomfortable (if they do stick around for a bit before leaving, you’ll notice them blinking a lot, so maybe it’s like onions for us?)

    Good luck with the new cat! How does Fizzle like Kirby?

  • August 27, 2008 at 4:41 pm: alkaline-kiwi

    Kirby is very cute. I miss my family cats and can’t have any pets in our apartment so I think I’ve been going extra mushy over cat photos on the internet.

  • August 28, 2008 at 2:03 pm: walrus

    i love everyone! even josh!

  • August 28, 2008 at 2:04 pm: walrus

    also, kirby is adorable! was he getting ready to meow or yawn in that photo?